Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But I think that, in a wayyou know, buying the Cezanne, for example; that's not a picture I would buy for my own collection, but it's a wonderful picture to tell an important art historical story, that if Agnew's can tell it really well, then someone may respond and want the Cezanne, or someone may simply want the Cezanne because they want the Cezanne. [Laughs. But I did bring in a decorator.

So, you know, that was a good start and I enjoyed that. [00:56:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: I do like art storage and handling. That's respect. I was actually shockedso the Worcester Art Museumyou know, I had been there and had been president for a couple of years and was actually shocked when they put up this board in the lobby, you know, of yourof the donors and their annual giving. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And everywhere I went, I met people.

So in this case, we were able to do something which German museumsGerman state museums with historical arthave traditionally said no to. I had this Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I bought very early on, which I was very, very pleased with, which she just sold to a collector who wanted a Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I think is fun because the Dutch connection, of coursethe Dutch fueled their money addiction and their art addiction by trading. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you learn that as a child?

If you come of age at a certain point in the collecting dynamic, and you are presented with the last 12 years of catalogues, and you go through them all, and from that you draw your conclusions about what the marketplace has been, and then you make the investor's fatal error of projecting the future as the same as the past, the problem there is that you say to yourself, Okay, a painting by, you know, fill in the blank, Molenaer, is worth 20,000 for a minor work. I'm certain it was with Mildred, because she was very involved in all of those things. JUDITH RICHARDS: yeah, but it's so different to really try to do it yourself, JUDITH RICHARDS: read about it in a book. And I got out of school and I moved down to Virginia, where I got a job in computer programming. A little house in Levittown that was literally bursting with stamps. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, in one case they were actually in the same apartment where the family had sold them from years before. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, that's very frustrating. JUDITH RICHARDS: In other words, being generous with attributions? Yeah, which I will acquire, just because it's related to the painting. I mean, obviously, my personal collecting wasI pushed the pause button and. I was in the running, and I lost it marginally. That's the [laughs] sort of Latinate spelling. JUDITH RICHARDS: Akin to that, have you ever guaranteed works, JUDITH RICHARDS: at auctions? And I tried for one of them, but it wasyou know, it was because it was terribly underestimated, but of course, the marketplace knew how to make it 700 percent of its high estimate. The marketplace has sort of moved away from providing them a platform for that, because there weren't enough of them. I mean, I think it was a natural evolution. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, and she got tired of my letters, and eventually she'd write back and say, "Yes."

Yeah, I mean, that'sthe ones who have open doors will always have my heart. WeI think we borrowed institutional collections, too, which was a rare thing for a gallery. And so, you know, they would see me enough eventually that I would get to know them. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mentioneddid you grow uphow long did you live in the city where you were born? CLIFFORD SCHORER: So they have nowthey have now one of the four most-complete ofin the world, and they have the biggest, I believe. I went to Thessalonica; I got in a rental car. Fortunately, Anthony Crichton-Stuart, who was running Noortman at the timeI went to see him, and I said, you know, "I won't do this unless I know that, you know, you will be available to me.". JUDITH RICHARDS: An investor rather than a conductor. Taste-making is a very difficult game, and, you know, obviously, we're outgunned by Vogue magazine, all the way down toyou know, Cond Nast Publications to, you know, you name itto Sotheby's. 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Anyway, so I asked about the price of that, and I think it was 765,000, which was actually attainable for me.

It was a stepping stone. The central figure is Olive Blake. It's Poseidon or something," you know. The transcript and recording are open for research. It's fascinating. JUDITH RICHARDS: Given that you were obviously a smart child. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So now there's really, you know, two sales worth attending.

], I mean, I remember I got it back to Boston, and it was hangingit's hanging in the photos. His hair was wet; I thought it was a Poseidon statue. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you ever think about collecting drawings or prints? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, did I read articles? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I tried toI made every installation decision. There was a stegosaurus that came up from the Badlands in South Dakota that I didn't move on fast enough, and then there was a triceratops that I didn't move on fast enough, but I had a second opportunity when the owner passed away.

I think that what people said to me back then, because it was a different kind of marketplace, wasit was all about market strategy. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I went to the director's office, and there's a glass door. How has it evolved? WebView Cliff Schorers professional profile on LinkedIn. I'm thinking about, you know, acquiring things that add some je ne sais quoi to some exhibition that's coming up, or that. So, no. So you've got another decoupling. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, it's very unusual forwell, when you talk about old art, and you talk about a, you know, an institutional collection, I know, for example, Worcester Art Museum has a policy, as do most American museums, you cannot lend to. I guess, what kid doesn't like dinosaurs? So I went to the booth, and I talked to them about the Procaccini, and they didn't know who I was, and I basically wanted to keep it that way. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. But there is a long-term plan that the museum and I are talking about for the things they want to keep. JUDITH RICHARDS: at the very beginning. I mean, my family on my mother's sideagain, it's interesting. I mean, certainly, Thomas Leysen, who's a phenomenal collector in Antwerp. And I wasI was really kind of bringing it all to conclusion. And it was a very independent study. And then the real estate. They were independent at that point; now they work for Christie's, and then theyactually, recently they've left Christie's; one has left Christie's and the other has as well. Just a sense of [laughs], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, in a way. I mean, you know, I bought Byzantine crucifixes, you know, just because, you know, I was there. When you're dealing with loans, and physically, the reality of the question, do you employ a registrar or an art handler or anyone like that? I remember these place names. JUDITH RICHARDS: Why did you focus on Boston for college? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Renovations; purchasing a company; selling a fiber optic switchyou know, whatever it isyou know, building a shelteryou know, we do all sorts of different sort of project-based companies, and nothing has cash flow, meaning I don't sell widgets and collect the 39-cent margin on a widget, and I don't sell X number widgets a year.

I didn't. So. [Laughs.]

I think that's fantastic.

CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, so I had minor collecting in that area, JUDITH RICHARDS: While you were collecting. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you moved on after about three and a half years. But we won't go too far there. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And then there's the collection that I was able to acquire that stimulated some of the same nerve cells, but possibly the L-DOPA levels were a little lower. We do TEFAF New York, TEFAF Maastricht, Masterpiece. JUDITH RICHARDS: Whenas we're getting into the '90s, is that when the involvement with painting started? Not that my collection is that important, but even the idea that I'm sort of peeling off the wheat from the chaff in any way.

And to have somebody really sort of advocating, you know, going to bat for them the way he does, you know, with the Corpus Rubenianum especially, but, you know, with everything. JUDITH RICHARDS: So the, in the '90s, you were beginning your studying, and you're focused on these key areas of Italian, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Again, it's a world of solitude, though; you talk about studying. I was definitely some. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I believe so, yeah.
CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. [Laughs.] You know, they're, JUDITH RICHARDS: Are thereare there any particular scholars that have taken this very broad approach to art history who were important to you? JUDITH RICHARDS: So coming back to your, CLIFFORD SCHORER: family. And that onethat one wasyou know, it was estimated at, I don't know, $2,000 and it made 47,000, and I'm in the checkout line, and someone I know is there who bid against me. I mean, you know, recently we did some work on Joseph Wright of Derby, and Cleveland bought our Joseph Wright of Derby. And I would go to those.

Telefonnummer think multifamily coaching cost. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and previously had been unassociated. I was in East Germany, Romania, Albania, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: There weren'tthere weren't.

JUDITH RICHARDS: in an understood way to further this. Anthony takes charge of all the art questions involved with that, and he will then give me some yeoman's work to go and, you know, "Find this; find that," you know, "Keep your eyes open for this, that, and the other thing. My Antwerp pre-1600 pictures were all on panel. And they're dressed like people that came off the farm. ", I mean, one experience like that was seeing Ribera in the Capodimonte when the room where the Ribera was was closed, and so I had to negotiate with this very large Italian woman who was blocking the entrance to the room to say, "Look, I came to see that painting." Now, the difference is that in, you knowobviously, in relative dollars, in 1900 you may have sold 1,001 paintings, but, you know, at an average price of 28 guineas. And every day I would pass through Richmond. So they had this booth; I had a brief conversation about the Procaccini. It's a long, convoluted story, but it gets us there. I'm reasonably good at language, and I tried. [00:20:00]. A barrister represented I think that isactually, I think five years is November of this year. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were you doing all this traveling on your own? Have you always maintained fine art storage? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Early 20th-century British and Continental.

CLIFFORD SCHORER: And also, you know, the sort ofthe mere suggestion that the Agnew's family would ever deal in such a thing [laughs], the bristle with which that question was met gave me great comfort that they actually didn't. Then I went back off to high school. Have you ever thought of writing about the works? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. So there's thosethere's those kind of, you know, the grime of Naples and the horror that life must've been during the plague of 1650 creates this explosion of these gruesome paintings. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. It was extraordinary. And that's great. CLIFFORD SCHORER: the flotsam and jetsam. And because he has such an enormous collectionhe has one of the great Dutch drawings collections in America, and Dutch metals and bronzes andyou know, we havehe's a cabinet collector, so we can get down and focus on little objects, and we can go one by one by one by one. To have the picture debuted with this book about how it's a masterpiece; have it not sell. JUDITH RICHARDS: What about relationships within those years, with local museum curators? It got out of hand, and I made a concerted effort to say, you know, "I have to scale this down, because if I fall down dead tomorrow, someone's going to have, you know, I would say, a William Randolph Hearst-scale cleanup to do. [00:10:02], JUDITH RICHARDS: When you started out in this field, did you have a general sense of where you wanted to go? So, you know, it's the conversation at the cocktail party, I suppose [laughs], but, you know, maybe not the cocktail party some people want to go to. And I remember the Museum of Natural History, which haunted me later as an obsession with paleontology. Well, we talked about that a little earlier. So, it was very, you knowit was the right [laughs]it was the right zeitgeist. So, no. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, you know, there's still an auction wholesale-to-retail spread more because the presentation is slipshod and fast, and, you know, you're in a group of merchandise that goes across the counter on the same day. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you collect books ever? CLIFFORD SCHORER: and that's an area that, as I've expanded my interest in, because Agnew's has such a deep archive on that material, so, you know, one of the first big projects we did with Anthony [Crichton-Stuart] was a phenomenal Pre-Raphaelite exhibition and show, and, you know. You want toyou want to sort ofyou know, you want to have a completely catalogued collection, with every example of, you know, canceled, non-cancelled. I mean. CLIFFORD SCHORER: A 110-foot whale, very big specimen. So then flash-forward three years, and it's back on the market again, with a slightly lower estimate this time.

And I'll explain, "Well, actually, they won't charge you zero. And the advance guard, I remember the night the advance guard came to the first Skinner auction. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you talked about enjoying lending. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is this inbased in Londonbased in Boston? And I think if you're focused enough to stay on the object, you know, to think at core about the transaction with your object and not listen to all the other noise and hype and marketing and, you know, all of that, and if you can learn as much as you can about that one object you're interested in, if you lose this one, so be it, you know. And I decided to specialize in database languages, which was quite early for those advanced database languages.

I mean, it hadI know there were three million sorted stamps. So thoseyou know, those are the moments where I think about all those table arguments about this picture and that picture and [00:28:00]. I mean, I was programming cash registers at that point, so it was very interesting. It's wonderful. I brought a chandelier back from Vienna. [00:50:00]. [00:52:00], So, you know, in that case, I went myself; looked at it; liked it; made an irrevocable bid; and bought it at the auction and then brought that immediately to London; gave it to them; and they're running with it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm trying to think what I'veno, what I've done is, which is interesting, is I've sort of done that kind of thing your psychiatrist advises you to do, which is I'm projecting. It turned out well. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the big London galleries. And then I moved to Boston directly. And, you know, we were talking yesterday about the Museum of Science.

[00:06:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: You've talked about competition a bit; in fact, in a very knowing way.

I'm just finding those morsels left on the trail and trying to follow them, and then that'sto me, yes, that's exciting. And pretty much after 13, I never went back home again. CLIFFORD SCHORER: The audience who is evaluating, you know, the merit of a Kangxi, you knowyou know, a vase or whatever. Let's keep that." So, you know, my grandmother was doting on me like a grandmother. But if we can say, Engage with this art on your terms.

And at the end of that exerciseI have some wonderful photos of that house, because it wasI sold that house two years agoand it was a long process.

JUDITH RICHARDS: for profit. Antwerp in 1600 is a pivot point in the history of the world, and the art is a 90-, you know, at least a 45-degree turn, with the advent of the Rubens workshop and even his teachers: Maerten de Vos, CLIFFORD SCHORER: and, you know, the predecessors. So what I'm trying to do is take a very hands-off approach to the sort ofany cash flow that goes into the business is reinvested in the business, which helps us to be able to buy better stock and do different things, and that might give us a slight edge over some other galleries where their owners need to provide their lifestyle from the income. [Laughs.] This is the flotsam and jetsam of my other businesses. Or. It was a fantasy shop that wasn't going to exist, but it was just an idea of how I would pass my time, because I need something to do. And there was a, you know, there was a large group, and they were giving a lecture on the Counter-Reformation and how this painting perfectly encapsulates the Counter-Reformation becauseand you fill in the blank. I walked in the office and I said, "Hi. Clifford Schorer and Judith Olch Richards have reviewed this transcript. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And obviously really didn'tonly went back to drawings and prints when, you know, when there was something.

You know, by the time you're done with all of those things, youyou know, your five percent or seven-and-a-half percent commission is completely consumed, and then some. So, you knowand the money they made is what made the Rembrandts. It's the big gallery at the MFA. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. And that was very funny, so. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I did two things at the same time, and you're going to laugh. So I dropped. You know, all of those things, and then you just let go, and it's, you knowit is aI think my psychology is well suited for that in a sense, because I don't have this great lust for the object; I have the lust for the moments that, you know, that sort of [00:36:00]. JUDITH RICHARDS: So now you've kind of put collecting on the back burner. The family believe it disappeared from Myrtle Grove after a series of robberies in the 1980s,[10] although Philip Mould notes that there was no crime reported. Schorer also recalls Anna Cunningham; George Abrams; Sydney Lewis; Chris Apostle; Nancy Ward Neilson; Jim Welu, as well as Rita Albertson; Tanya Paul; Maryan Ainsworth; Thomas Leysen; Johnny Van Haeften; Otto Naumann; and Konrad Bernheimer, among others. WebWinslow Homer (February 24, 1836 September 29, 1910) was an American landscape painter and printmaker, best known for his marine subjects.He is considered one of the So, you know, we may not necessarily be the origin of all the writings, but we're a part of it, so we can contribute to, you know, the fundraising effort to write a catalogue, and we can give the pictures; we can do this; we can do that. You know. I tried to hire someone who came in, and we had some battle royales over everything. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. And we would oftenyou know, we would find that in even a five-word conversation we understood what each of our aesthetics was and, you know, how we felt about different things that we were potentially going to bid against each other on. We have a sort of oath that we take about, you know, things we have personal interests in or things like that. [00:08:03], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Chris Apostle from Sotheby's. Yeah, pre-that buildingto the Louvre, to, you know. So I wrote that program in a month.

Nevertheless, do you get calls? But, yes, I mean, I think having a high-end warehouse where, you knowI would like to be the service provider in that equation and not the gallerist, because, to me, it'sno matter what you do, it's a clinical experience. And, you know, I've watched her career rise. JUDITH RICHARDS: They don't have school groups or something? I mean, to me, the Met is visiting.

Noortman was the gallery that was, you know, a very successful Dutch dealer, Robert Noortman.

I needed to think about walls. But when I finally did that, I did start, likeI made, like, display walls of, you know, particular things. So, obviously crazy, but something I wanted to learn about. JUDITH RICHARDS: It sounds like it was athe attraction to you was partly the art and the visual experience, and the business history. I was followed by a security guardthe wholejust followed around. So, I mean, signature works: Saint Cecilia by Waterhouse, Rossetti's Proserpine, The Heart of the Rose by Burne-Jones. Someone mentioned the name Mark Fisch to meJon Landau. He just built, I think, the first public museum in Antwerp. You had to go to the big card catalogues and pick out something.

Yeah. So the logical leap I made, which in hindsight was a very good one for commercial reasons, was Chinese Imperial.

CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, no, no, I mean, I had particular moments in cities, but, yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, of course they do, but she's being, you know, CLIFFORD SCHORER: She's being funny. He had eyelashes; he had glass eyes. The door is closed; we buzz you in. To depict something, for him, was not just to provide an opportunity for And the market was not very discerning, because there were enough people in it to absorb all that material. [00:58:12], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah.

That are in, you know, the rarefied collectors' hands. I do like art storage. And also, there were many dealers where I could suss out instantly that they knew absolutely nothing, and they were talking nonsense, and that drove me mad, so I would literally just turn around on my heel and walk out the booth. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's a loan, yeah, yeah. So, I lost it. She's great. I met a few collectors that I still know. I mean, I love George. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I worked thereso while I was working there, my father was lobbying hard to get me to go back to school. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Johnny Van Haeften.

And so, in this case, weyou know, I really got ready for it, and I expected it to be, you know, the same price as the last time, and I was prepared for that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So where some of the other investors may have made a very small return because theytheir gains were diluted by the lossesI was very focused on, you know, "I want this painting and this painting and this painting." JUDITH RICHARDS: The institution was open; it was just closed because they didn't guard it? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. The auction house will charge me zero." CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, I can just give a recent example. The painting was featured in the second episode of the BBC TV programme, Fake or Fortune? And it was obsessive. And I was doing independent study, but at the same time, I was offered an incredible programming job at Gillette. It was a good job. I wasyou know, I was very much on my own.

CLIFFORD SCHORER: Agnew's is a different kind of firm, because it traveled through seven hands in the same family, so you have ayou know, I have an even bigger responsibility to make sure that whomever I hand it off toyou know, that they have the same appreciation for it as an asset and don't need it as a source of income. So I went to Spain, and I tried to buy both of the remaining paintings. Just feeling and looking at the objects, and. And, you know, I basically said, you know, "Is there anything you'd like from me?" Some cruder examples of earlier things from Han. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I've always enjoyed symposia, you know, of one type or another. And I remember saying, you know, These are the best Chinese export objects that you can buy, you know, in America, because these were very much American market pieces.

CLIFFORD SCHORER: See, I don't want to seem like. So it's more interesting early on in American history because they were here very early. So, sure, I read, you know, whatever I could find. Rockox. And we'll get back to him, too. I mean, the output of those workshops was massive, massive.